Timeline for What should I do when a user persistently insists on poor formatting and resists formatting improvements?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
14 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| Nov 9, 2017 at 1:32 | comment | added | WinEunuuchs2Unix | Both of you are great hard working contributors to the community. I think the focus should be on what to do with users that persistently roll back edits out of vanity or some other knee-jerk-reaction reason. You guys seem to be arguing over the tree and ignoring the forest and it seems unbecoming of two such great people. | |
| Nov 6, 2017 at 10:18 | comment | added | Andrea Lazzarotto | This is a general question about a general problem. A specific example is provided for reference. As you said, it might not be the largest example, but still it's an example. After what has emerged in the comments I am wondering if I should make it even more general given that we are talking about a user doing constant abuse of formatting. | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 17:05 | comment | added | Eliah Kagan | @AndreaLazzarotto But I have a thought about the difference in our perspectives. You said you you disagree that "formatting properly is just aestethics." Do you think I believe that? I didn't say it or anything like it. I said the advantage of list formatting in this case is that it's prettier. I even followed my entire first paragraph with a statement that its analysis doesn't generally apply. As for what may be a real disagreement about "a manually typed list," my first comment is about that. Lists sometimes don't need special formatting. If it is needed here, that should be explained. | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 16:24 | comment | added | Eliah Kagan | @AndreaLazzarotto The answer would be, "If editing is inappropriate, do nothing or explain why the change is bad." But if part of the issue is that it is difficult or unpleasant to read the post with a screen reader, then that's a major problem and it belongs in your question. You raised that topic, then seemed to indicate I shouldn't focus on it when I posed specific questions about what text is and isn't suitable for screen readers, which you didn't answer. This made me wonder if your concern for visually impaired people was genuine and relevant to this case, or just a rhetorical exercise. | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 16:16 | comment | added | Andrea Lazzarotto | Well, maybe I should change the title in "What to do when users intentionally degrade formatting of their posts?". | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 16:13 | comment | added | Eliah Kagan | @AndreaLazzarotto I don't think your question is unclear, I just think that it's not attempting to describe the existing situation in a way that would explain why it is an actual problem. I'm reasonably sure this is because it's not an actual problem, but perhaps it is and you have just not explained why. The behavior you want to "handle" is not actually a problem that needs handling. People get to edit their posts, even in ways you personally dislike. If you want to override that, the onus is on you to tell the community why the current state of the post should be considered unacceptable. | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 16:06 | comment | added | Andrea Lazzarotto | I believe the question is pretty clear: a user reverted edits improving a post and I am asking how to handle this behavior without an edit war. I am not asking for other people to take action. I see you are in a mood for arguing, maybe you felt personally attacked or something. I actually like most parts of your answer, what I cannot agree on is that formatting properly is just aestethics or that a manually typed list does not constitute a problem. It doesn't look right if reading with your eyes and it doesn't read right if using a screen reader. | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 15:37 | comment | added | Eliah Kagan | @AndreaLazzarotto Meta is the right place for you to explain why you want action to be taken on the site. That might touch on virtually any topic, in the specific ways that the topic applies to the action you are advocating for. In your question, you seem to frame the issue as minor by saying that one of the reasons you proceeded with your edit was that it would not clutter the suggested edits queue. The claim that "semantic HTML is useful and sometimes necessary" is wholly inadequate to justify the position that there is a significant actual problem in this case that is in need of fixing. | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 15:30 | comment | added | Andrea Lazzarotto | Yes. The main problem is that a edit that was improving the formatting has been basically undone. The secondary problem is that this act of reverting some modifications made the post slightly less readable. Meta is not the right place to explain the fact that semantic HTML is useful and sometimes necessary, there are plenty of resources on the subject, i.e. (1) (2) (3). | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 15:11 | comment | added | Eliah Kagan | @AndreaLazzarotto So is there an actual problem here that affects people, or not? That screen readers "say something" when there's a list doesn't address the question of when lists should be used, nor if someone using a screen reader (or anyone else) is adversely affected by the post's current formatting. It makes sense that, however one reads text, one experiences the presence of HTML list formatting differently from its absence, but that does not speak to the question of when HTML list formatting should be used. Thus far, you haven't shown that anything in the post is actually incorrect. | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 14:56 | comment | added | Andrea Lazzarotto | Screen readers are just an example (but yeah, they say something if a list is present in the text). But providing semantically correct and formatted content should be a goal that is pursued regardless of screen reader issues. | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 14:35 | comment | added | Eliah Kagan | @AndreaLazzarotto Can you explain what you mean? Do most screen readers produce unacceptable output from text like "1) The software is no longer available"? Suppose no list were used at all, and that the text had instead said, "First, the software is no longer available. Second..." Or suppose it had been in a paragraph like "(a) The software is no longer available. (b) The software..." all without any line breaks. Would there be a problem in those situations? From your comment, it seems like your question doesn't mention any of your actual concerns. I suggest you edit it so that it does. | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 14:13 | comment | added | Andrea Lazzarotto | Thanks for your answer but I find the first part really troublesome. The absence of a semantically correct HTML code is a real issue for people reading the website via screen readers or other tools, for instance visually impaired people. Formatting is not just "pretty", it serves a purpose. | |
| Nov 4, 2017 at 13:12 | history | answered | Eliah Kagan | CC BY-SA 3.0 |